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Redfin Numbers Food Fight — Oh Goody, Let Me In

Kevin Boer, Broker Owner, 3 Oceans Real Estate, Inc. ()

March 2nd, 2007 · 5 Comments

Following the scent laid down by Redfin, the Jesuit bloodhound is hot on the trail and won’t let go. This looks like way too much fun to miss, being a numbers geek and all, so I’m happy to join in on what is otherwise a fairly pointless exercise: you can make numbers say just about anything you like. Plus, the only real numbers that count are those on Redfin’s P&L statement, which are still, by Glenn Kelman’s admission, distinctly in the red; his job as CEO, of course, is to eventually change the color of that ink to black and thus handsomely reward his investors.
At any rate, here we go…

I hereby stand by Redfin’s original claim, slightly modified per the obscure and eventually irrelevant mistake which I took great delight in finding — not because I have any particular need to prove or disprove what Redfin is saying, but simply because I take pleasure in futzing with numbers. An Excel summary shows that, with the data Redfin used, indeed, on average, homes in which Redfin represented the buyer were sold for, on average, a tad over 99% of the list price, whereas non-Redfin-represented buyers, on average, paid a tad over 100% of the list price.

Redfin's numbers are, on the surface, correct This much is a fact, indisputable. What it means, however, is a completely different story. Some, including Glenn Kelman himself, would have us think that the difference is simply because Redfin agents are better negotiators. Alas, we have absolutely no way of proving or disproving that from the numbers. Correlation, if I recall correctly from my stats classes, in no way implies causation. The “Fasten Seat Belt” sign is highly correlated with take-offs, in-flight turbulence, and landings, but is unlikely to actually be the cause of any of them.Any of dozens of explanations could be behind the numbers: Redfin’s clients may tend to be bargain seekers who are content to wait till they find those hidden gems (or fallen crumbs) that happen to be available for less than list price; Redfin’s agents and clients may have a tendancy to bid on properties that they recognize as over-priced, enabling them to savor the cachet of having “got a deal”; perhaps the negotiating gods of Seattle smiled benevolently on all brokerages with unusual names; or — not impossible, but definitely impossible to prove — Redfin’s agents could simply be better negotiators.But back to the numbers themselves. Per Redfin’s report, they started by cleaning up some dirty data caused by agents who missed that 5th grade math class that explained the importance of getting that decimal point correctly placed.Greg Swann brought to our attention some other order-of-magnitude errors, so perhaps the data set I’m working with was uncorrected, or perhaps Redfin simply didn’t catch these errors.
Dissecting the Redfin numbersThis chart shows the most egregious violations of good taste in posting bogus numbers on MLS’s. A property sold for over 1000% of the list price? A full order of magnitude? I think not. I shan’t embarrass the agent in question except to say that perhaps the “Ryness Company” Windermere franchise should have a math screening exam for its agents. The list price on this property was $36,030 and the sales price was $384,990. Clearly either the first is missing a zero at the end, or the second has an extra one.The second highest violator is a bit less clear. The list price is $100,000 while the sales price is $700,000. The most likely reason is a careless transposing of the “1″ and “7″.

The third one is likely missing a “1″ in front of the alleged listing price of $99,500…and down we go.

At the bottom end, we have the following numerically-challenged gems:

More nutty agents

A property sold for one-tenth the list price? I think not. Again, an errant 0. The next one is most likely explained by a transposed “6″ and “2″.

And on we go.

Instead of second-guessing dozens of possibly wrong entries, I thought it most fair to just purge the worst offenders, so I chopped off the top and bottom 25 entries. Now we re-run the numbers, and — unsurprisingly, given the size of the data set — we get only a modest change in results, narrowing the “Redfin advantage” by five-hundredths of a percentage point.

2007-03-02_17-48-05-015.png

That was certainly much ado about nothing.

Inspired by the James Hsu approach, I decided to take a more detailed look.

Redfin had 170 sales (representing the buyer) during the time period in question. How well did similar-sized and larger firms do? I separated out all the firms with at least 150 sales and then sorted them by average sell/list price.

The results will gladden Glenn, give Greg goosebumps, and madden Marlow.
Hmmm...maybe there's something to these Redfin numbers Redfin came in at the top of the list with its average of 99.33%. Next best was Prudential Northwest at 99.89% followed in third place by a tie between a Windermere franchise and Coldwell Banker Bain, both at 99.33%.

At the bottom of the bigger-broker list was another Windermere franchise at 103.55%

Why are my results different from James? If I understand his methodology, he used the median instead of the mean, included more than just King County, and only included single family homes, not condos.

What about if we include all firms, not just the ones with 150 or more sales? Now Redfin slips down in the rankings quite dramatically to about position 390 out of nearly 1200 firms represented.

The very best firm in Seattle, if you use Redfin’s reckoning, would have to be the one that scored an average of 82.84% for its sales/list ratio. The catch…they only had 1 sale.

2007-03-02_18-35-06-140.png The firms above Redfin in this ranking tend to all be smaller ones, which makes sense — if you’re a very small shop and had only one sale, and that sale happened to have a good ratio, then by this definition you’re a winner!

In fact — and you may have to read this statement a few times to understand it — of all the companies with a better average sales/list ratio than Redfin, the average number of sales was only 5. The biggest company that bested Redfin did 109 sales.

The bottom of the list, as you would expect, is also dominated by one-hit wonders.

If you’ve made it this far, you’re probably wondering what to make of all this. What do the numbers show? A few things:

  1. Depending on which metric, geography, and property type you choose, you may get different results.
  2. The whole average “sales/list ratio” thing is interesting, but not necessarily enlightening.
  3. To the extent that you take that ratio seriously,
    • Redfin not only did well, but in fact beat all other relatively large firms.
    • Of the companies that beat Redfin, most were one-hit wonders.

Now, off to dinner…

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5 responses so far ↓

  • 1 Chinese Food » Redfin Numbers Food Fight — Oh Goody, Let Me In // Mar 3, 2007 at 7:11 am

    [...] Original post by Kevin Boer, Realtor, 3 Oceans Real Estate and software by Elliott   [...]

  • 2 Sasha Aickin // Mar 4, 2007 at 4:46 pm

    Full Disclosure/Disclaimers:

    1) I’m a Redfin employee, but I’m a programmer, not a real estate agent, and I did not work on the Redfin Advantage report.

    2) I’m writing this post as my personal opinion, not as an official Redfin communication. Any errors I make are my own, and any opinions should be attributed to me, not Redfin.

    Kevin,

    Sasha from Redfin here; we met briefly at the Socketsite shindig, and I’ve really been enjoying reading your blog since then.

    I had a quick thought about the difference between your results and James’, which I posted as a rather lengthy comment on James’ blog. If I read his methodology right, he’s not just using median instead of mean; he’s using median(list)/median(sale) as opposed to median(list/sale). Since the median operation is not commutative, median(list)/median(sale) is almost never the same as median(list/sale), and it isn’t a particularly useful metric for answering the question at hand. Median(list/sale) should tell us what the median deal for a brokerage is, and average(list/sale), which you used, should tell us what the average deal for a brokerage is.

    Thanks for your numbers geekery; I was raised by a statistician, and I love to see folks have an argument that really gets down into the data. Keep up the good work!

  • 3 Sasha Aickin // Mar 4, 2007 at 4:50 pm

    Oops. In that last post, when I said that the median opeation wasn’t “commutative”, I meant “distributive”. It’s been more than a few years since Algebra I, I guess. Sorry.

  • 4 Kevin Boer, Realtor, 3 Oceans Real Estate // Mar 4, 2007 at 8:26 pm

    Hey Sasha,

    Thanks for dropping by! I don’t remember enough about my stats classes to know what you can and can’t do with the median. Whether the method Redfin (and I) used is better or worse than James’ method, I have no idea.

    The bigger point, however, is the correlation vs. causation one.

  • 5 Redfin Launches Consumers’ Bill of Rights | 3 Oceans -- The San Francisco Bay Area Real Estate Blog // Apr 2, 2007 at 8:04 am

    [...] Not because I am uncritically accepting of everything Redfin foes; quite the contrary, I have called them out on blurring the distinction between correlation and causation (see my articles Redfin Numbers Food Fight and Agents Who Take More Pictures are Better Negotiators), I have criticized their advertising as needless stick-it-in-the-eye tactics, and I have criticized Glenn for making reckless statements to the media that does nothing to endear him to the real estate community. Not because I think Redfin’s business model will revolutionize the industry and change the way things are done forever. Quite the contrary, I remain skeptical that reimbursing 2/3rds of the commission on the revenue side, while spending heaps of money on the technology side, is a long-term recipe for success. Why then am I supporting this initiative? Simply because I like the idea of somebody shaking up this industry and standing up for the consumer, and if that “somebody” happens to be a competitor, so be it. I have never doubted Glenn’s commitment to being firmly on the consumer’s side, and I have no problem with his company making money from it. I don’t even have a problem with Redfin getting positive publicity from it because I know that’s not the primary reason they’re launching this initiative. As this conversation continues — which will no doubt become quite contentious, as befits many Redfin initiatives — we’ll get into the meat and potatoes of the Bill of Rights itself. I’m not in unanimous consent on all the issues — for instance, I think there are situations in which dual agency is not only needed, but is best for both clients — but overall I like what I see and I’m happy putting my name behind it. [...]

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